Tolerance and tapering

[Mich]

Hello,

I'm testing out the new site.

Thank you by the way- for all of your hard work !!

 

Question, as I'm seeing this and it concerns me.

If someone is in tolerance and they are tapering Very slow;  slow as in under the recommendation of 5 to 10 percent- and that is per month.

 

And, they are starting to experience worsening of tolerance symptoms - including increased interdosal wd-

 

What is the recommendation? 

I don't think it is understood that if it is too slow, while in tolerance, symptoms will only increase. 

 

How does one approach this ?

Thank you

[WebDevElijah]

In a benzodiazepine taper, especially for those experiencing tolerance withdrawal (interdose withdrawal or worsening symptoms despite slow tapering), there can be several considerations to address. When the taper is too slow, the body’s tolerance can continue to increase, potentially worsening withdrawal symptoms. Here’s how one might approach this situation:

 

1. Assess the Current Tapering Plan: If symptoms are worsening despite a very slow taper, the current tapering plan may need adjustment. Paradoxically, tapering too slowly can sometimes prolong symptoms of withdrawal, as the body remains in a state of dependence. A slightly faster taper might help some individuals in this situation.

 

2. Rate of Taper: While tapering recommendations are typically 5-10% of the dose per month, every individual reacts differently. If tolerance symptoms are increasing, a slightly faster taper could be attempted, aiming for perhaps closer to 10% per month rather than something slower. For some, adjusting the taper to a more consistent rate may alleviate some withdrawal symptoms without exacerbating the process.

 

3. Stabilization: In some cases, temporarily holding the taper to stabilize symptoms might be necessary. This would give the body time to adjust before resuming tapering at a modified rate.

 

4. Dosing Frequency: Increasing the frequency of dosing (splitting doses throughout the day) may help manage interdose withdrawal symptoms by keeping a more stable level of the drug in the bloodstream.

 

5. Supplements and Non-Drug Strategies: Supporting the body with non-drug interventions like good nutrition, stress management, and supplements (under medical advice) may help with managing withdrawal symptoms.

 

6. Consulting a Specialist: It’s important to work closely with a healthcare provider experienced in benzodiazepine withdrawal to ensure that the tapering strategy is personalized and adjusted as needed. Sometimes, a neurologist or psychiatrist with experience in benzo withdrawal can provide specific insights for difficult cases.

 

7. Avoid Reinstating or Increasing Doses: It’s crucial to avoid the temptation to increase the dose to alleviate withdrawal symptoms, as this can further entrench dependence and make future tapering even more difficult.

 

Adjusting the taper might seem counterintuitive, but sometimes faster, more structured reductions with close medical monitoring are necessary for those experiencing worsening tolerance symptoms.

[Mich]

Thank You for the detailed response.

It all makes a lot of sense. 

 

I feel this is important for some members, as some are increasing their suffering by going so, so very slow.  Their tolerance and possible paradoxical symptoms are just increasing. How do you suggest this without looking like a jerk or heartless ? 

Especially when someone is in the thick of very difficult symptoms; hard to say- maybe you should go faster or try a larger cuts.

 

This is all rhetorical, it's just hard for me to watch this. 

 

 

 

[WebDevElijah]

It’s definitely a sensitive topic, especially when someone is in the middle of intense symptoms. You could approach it with empathy and by sharing what you’ve observed or learned, without directly telling them what to do. For example, you could say:

 

“I completely understand how difficult this process can be, and everyone’s journey is different. I’ve seen in some cases where going extremely slow has actually prolonged symptoms for some, potentially due to tolerance issues. I wonder if there might be a balance or a different approach that could help reduce some of the suffering. Have you thought about slightly larger or quicker cuts as an option? Of course, this is something you should discuss with your doctor, but I just wanted to share this perspective in case it might help.”

 

This way, you’re offering a suggestion, but leaving the decision in their hands while acknowledging their struggle.

[BluePosion]

Hi, I just joined after watching your latest video on Youtube.

 

I have been micro tapering for 7 months and after a very hard start, i spend a very nice 3 months summer window, mid september i hit the wall and i was in having stronger and stronger symptoms and even though i reduced my taper rate by 25% i keep getting sicker.

 

I am in acute withdrawal again and it seems my dose is not working anymore or i developed a huge tolerance lately. I don't know what to do, i feel i need to make a long hold but in the past, the best windows came when i resumed my tapering as if my body was happy to get rid of the posion.

 

I am doing diazepam liquid taper and my dose is 1.85mg night and 0.26mg morning that makes a total of 2.11mg every 24 hours. I have been only tapering form the morning dose as i had severe fatige and oversedation during the day and dropping morning dose improved those symptoms so much and almos went to zero this summer. Now i am struggling cause my morning dose is so tiny and my night dose doesnt seem to bring any relief.

 

My current symptoms are flu like sensations but very severe, feeling like having hi fever but my temperature is normal, horrible headaches, muscle pain and twitches, tinnitus, parestesias in arms and legs irritability and i may feel very hot or cold with a few minutes difference.

 

I don't take any other medication but i am planing to take a paracetamol today cause i feel to sick it might bring any relief at least for the headache and the flu sesations.

 

Thanks.

[WebDevElijah]

Hi there,

 

Thank you for sharing your experience. It sounds like you’ve been very in tune with your body during this taper, which is incredibly valuable. Tapering off Valium (diazepam) can be unpredictable, and sometimes our bodies react differently even when we adjust the pace.

 

Since you’ve been tapering for seven months and recently reduced your taper rate by 25%, it might be worth considering an even slower approach. Some people find that very gradual reductions, like 5-10% of the current dose every few weeks, can help minimize symptoms. Since you’ve had success in the past by continuing the taper rather than holding, a very slight decrease might be beneficial. Even micro-tapering by tiny amounts daily or every other day could be gentle enough to avoid triggering more severe symptoms.

 

The symptoms you’re describing—flu-like sensations, muscle pain, and irritability—are unfortunately common in Valium withdrawal. Paracetamol could help ease some of that discomfort temporarily, though it’s often best to keep doses minimal.

 

Remember that it’s okay to listen to your body and adjust the taper pace as you go. Valium withdrawal can be challenging, and it’s all about finding the balance between progress and symptom management. You’re doing a remarkable job navigating this process. Reach out anytime; you’re not alone in this journey.
 

 

Please check out this link:

 

 

https://www.beatingbenzos.com/topic/58-why-the-final-taper-steps-are-toughest/#comment-62

 

[WebDevElijah]

Do you see my replies now?
 

[BluePosion]

2 hours ago, cyberelijah said:

5-10% of the current dose every few weeks,

 

 i am doing daily micro taper and applied many "firewalls" i was first doing 5 days taper 0.02mg a day and then holding for 2 days but it only worked fine for a month so i changed from 5/2 taper to 4/3, that is taper 4 days and hold for 3 and then taper for 4 and hold for 3 again, i do that as firewall but also as my dose i getting lower and i don't want my percentage to go 14%, i hold for the whole 4th week of the month, so i go 4/3, 4/3, 4/3  and hold for 7, then start again next month.

 

This was working awesome for like 3 months and had a smooth summer and full of windows but las month i hit the wall, maybe cause i was ignoring the hyperbolic rule and my percentage was 7%, 9%, 11% and i was gonna go 14% when i was cought up by the tsunami.

 

 

[BluePosion]

6 minutes ago, cyberelijah said:

Do you see my replies now?
 

 

Yes i do now perfectly.

[Thorin]

6 hours ago, BluePosion said:

 

 i am doing daily micro taper and applied many "firewalls" i was first doing 5 days taper 0.02mg a day and then holding for 2 days but it only worked fine for a month so i changed from 5/2 taper to 4/3, that is taper 4 days and hold for 3 and then taper for 4 and hold for 3 again, i do that as firewall but also as my dose i getting lower and i don't want my percentage to go 14%, i hold for the whole 4th week of the month, so i go 4/3, 4/3, 4/3  and hold for 7, then start again next month.

 

This was working awesome for like 3 months and had a smooth summer and full of windows but las month i hit the wall, maybe cause i was ignoring the hyperbolic rule and my percentage was 7%, 9%, 11% and i was gonna go 14% when i was cought up by the tsunami.

 

 

Now that I’m down to the lower doses I’ve had to slow my taper to a 0.001mg reduction every 4th day which equals about 5-6% or 0.01mg a month. It’s still very difficult but I’m functional. I held for a while too before restarting at this lower speed. It may help you to hold and then try going really slow for a while.

[Mich]

On 10/25/2024 at 1:13 AM, cyberelijah said:

It’s definitely a sensitive topic, especially when someone is in the middle of intense symptoms. You could approach it with empathy and by sharing what you’ve observed or learned, without directly telling them what to do. For example, you could say:

 

“I completely understand how difficult this process can be, and everyone’s journey is different. I’ve seen in some cases where going extremely slow has actually prolonged symptoms for some, potentially due to tolerance issues. I wonder if there might be a balance or a different approach that could help reduce some of the suffering. Have you thought about slightly larger or quicker cuts as an option? Of course, this is something you should discuss with your doctor, but I just wanted to share this perspective in case it might help.”

 

This way, you’re offering a suggestion, but leaving the decision in their hands while acknowledging their struggle.

 

[Mich]

Thank you

[WebDevElijah]

You are welcome

 

[BluePosion]

10 hours ago, Thorin said:

Now that I’m down to the lower doses I’ve had to slow my taper to a 0.001mg reduction every 4th day which equals about 5-6% or 0.01mg a month. It’s still very difficult but I’m functional. I held for a while too before restarting at this lower speed. It may help you to hold and then try going really slow for a while.

Hi, i am making a long hold to try to stabilize me and then resume my taper. This month i only tapered 5.5% so i dont understand why i am still on such a big wave. I hope a long hold helps me get back to my functional state wich i lost for over a month now.

[James]

Wow. I am getting nervous just reading these posts. I don't want to say anything that may offend. That being said, I can't help but to know that this is a very arduous process. While everyone is different, we all have commonalities. This process is a very difficult time and there's no getting around that.

[Rosalind]

On 10/25/2024 at 6:13 AM, ElijahDJP said:

It’s definitely a sensitive topic, especially when someone is in the middle of intense symptoms. You could approach it with empathy and by sharing what you’ve observed or learned, without directly telling them what to do. For example, you could say:

 

“I completely understand how difficult this process can be, and everyone’s journey is different. I’ve seen in some cases where going extremely slow has actually prolonged symptoms for some, potentially due to tolerance issues. I wonder if there might be a balance or a different approach that could help reduce some of the suffering. Have you thought about slightly larger or quicker cuts as an option? Of course, this is something you should discuss with your doctor, but I just wanted to share this perspective in case it might help.”

 

This way, you’re offering a suggestion, but leaving the decision in their hands while acknowledging their struggle.

 

[Rosalind]

Mich, this is why David does personal taper plans that can be adjusted as the taper process proceeds. The 5 to 10% reduction has evolved over the years of anecdotal evidence but it remains a personal process with an infinite number of variables many of which we can never know.